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Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:23 am
by Tevanos
Hey everyone,

In Quest for Iscandar, the mission is to go to Iscandar, get the Cosmo DNA (Reverser?) and return to Earth and restore it. While everything panned out pretty well in the end for the Earthlings, there has just been something about it all that bothered me about the plan from the get go. The original series and 2199 both still have this issue. I thought it might be a fun topic for discussion, and I certainly don't mean to diminish the series.

According to the plan, the Yamato is to bring the Cosmo DNA back to Earth, but what next? The plan doesn't resolve any of the root issues of the Gamilon invasion itself. Over and again, the mission's priorities are restated that Iscandar is the priority. The Pluto Base, Balan, etc, and even Gamilan (coincidentally discovered to be near Iscandar) are not mission objectives, and all are almost skipped/bypassed in the greater mission of reaching Iscandar. Clearly, fighting a path to Iscandar (and apparently Gamilon) and back is not part of the plan. The plan is to get the Cosmo DNA back to Earth and heal the Earth.

Let's say the Yamato focused entirely on this mission objective, and did exactly what the plan stated. The Cosmo DNA is on Earth and does its thing and Earth is happy. But, they'd still have planet bombs and Gamilons to deal with. There didn't seem (to me) to be any "part 2" to the plan to further fight off the Gamilons. I suppose restoring the planet may have helped, but the Earth was already defeated... could the Cosmo DNA both restore the Earth and somehow eliminate the Gamilon threat?

I understand the plan itself was the act of a desperate people, but it seems that just bringing back the device was simply not going to be enough to also stop the Gamilon aggression. Did the leaders of Earth not know this or was it just meant to buy more time… delaying the inevitable?

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:06 pm
by Ithekro
Survival of the species is the first goal. The planet will be dead in a year if they do nothing. If they get the Cosmo DNA and it restores the planet as Starsha says, than even if the Gamilas continue bombing, they have another six or seven years to figure something out...like reverse engineer the Iscandarian technology and build a fleet of Yamatos, which should stop the war at least locally as they can overpower the known Gamilas ships. Also having all their work overturned might be enough for the Gamilas to either give up, or come up with a new tactic. But then Earth has Yamato, so most plans would have to get around that and any future warships.

The alternative plan, the Izumo Plan, was to send the human race to another Earth-like planet to start over. Even if the Gamilas arrive to enslave them, they would at least be on a living world instead of a dead one that would kill them inside a year.

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:31 pm
by August Ragone
That can be seen as a bit of a conumdrum. In the 1974 series (IIRC), they don't know where the Planet Bombing is coming from, and once Captain Okita realizes they are coming from Pluto, he plans to destroy the Gamilas base (and they do). In YAMATO: 2199, Captain Okita listens to the advice of his officers — and while the main mission is to get to Iscandar and back — he decides to attack the Garmillas base on Pluto. If they didn't, the Earth would continue to be bombarded. Plus, in this version, the Earth isn't going to be the new home of the Gamilas race as in the original series — this time, it's just another conquered system as a part of Garmillas imperial expansion (and therefore not relatively important, other than being their first conquest in the Milky Way).

Is there anything I left out?

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:06 am
by Steve H
I should like to point out, and I guess it's more a common sense suggestion, we really REALLY must be very careful not to co-mingle 1974 Yamato with the recent Yamato 2199.

They are not the same. 2199 isn't "what really went on", it doesn't inform us of ANYTHING in regards to 1974 Yamato. Two. Separate. Shows.

I can tell August understands this just from the way he phrased things.

So then, the central question regarding the 1974 Yamato.

When the World Government (un-named but clearly implied) and the Earth Defense Command (named) decided to take on what may well have been a suicide mission to Iscandar, the understanding was "If things continue exactly the same as now, Mankind will be extinct in just one Earth year." This was a pretty huge gamble for the EDC. What if the Gamilas increased the bombing? What if they deployed a new, more devastating weapon (the Super Giant Missile as one example)? What if they decided on a physical invasion? All of these must have been considered, I would hope, because all those assumptions are completely logical in terms of any kind of warfare.

The EDC clearly had no idea on the logistics train that fed the (then-unknown) Gamilas Base on Pluto. They didn't know if the Planet Bombs were imported from outside the Solar System or (more logically) mined and created using the Oort cloud and asteroid belt debris. Simple orbital mechanics would show the 'back track' but there's no real way to assign a launch point. 1974 Yamato doesn't specify that the Planet Bombs come from Pluto, just somewhere outside the orbit of Mars. Episode 7, a Planet Bomb passes Yamato and they ASSUME a base on Pluto sending them off. And so on from there.

(note also that Schultz is gleefully overlooking a huge field of Super Giant Missiles, thus knocking the EDC's calculations into a cocked hat)

So, assuming original mission objectives were followed, what was the EDC thinking?

First, we must examine 'first cause' for a moment. Conceptually, Earth was Japan circa 1945. USAAF bombing runs were devastating the Japanese home islands. High Explosives and Incendiaries (nee, 'Planet Bombs') rendered the manufacturing cities ('the surface') effectively unlivable.

but Earth isn't WW II Japan. While Earth was (likely) cut off from any space resources (asteroid metals, lunar materials, ring ice, etc) there was still plenty of raw or recycled material on Earth itself to manufacture warships, as well as having impressive computer aided manufacturing technology. Japan 1945 was cut off from almost all importing of fuel and materials, and the Japanese Islands are fairly resource poor.

Given the fact of the Earth Defense Fleet circa 2201, it seems logical that the EDC quickly embarked on a crash program to adapt Iscandar WMn technology to new classes of warships, the new power meant to beat back the bypassed Gamilas threat forces- a need that was slowed somewhat by the Yamato's destruction of the Pluto Base. Now with Wave Motion Engines powering improved shock cannon EDF ships could actually fight and win.

My assumption has always been the EDF Destroyer was the first of the new generation of WMn using warships. Note it doesn't have a Wave Motion Gun, being in effect a flying gun turret. Armor, Guns, some missiles. Simple but likely deadly to the standard Gamilas destroyer.

Keep in mind, while conditions on Earth were shown to be getting desperate, it wasn't for lack of energy or other resources. It was panic caused by the ticking doomsday clock. I can see people, maybe whole cities choosing to just give up since there seemed to be no way to do ANYTHING other than take it. See also the movie 'On The Beach'. Yamato was hope. Wave Motion Energy was a sudden new chance.

That's my take. :)

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:48 pm
by Tevanos
Ithekro wrote:If they get the Cosmo DNA and it restores the planet as Starsha says, than even if the Gamilas continue bombing, they have another six or seven years to figure something out...


Right, but neither series really discussed this. Even a simple line of dialog from someone stating that with the Cosmo DNA, the Earth could be restored..... which will enable us to regroup and strike back at the Gamilons using our new Wave Motion Technology. Or something. I was thinking along these same lines, but neither series seemed to consider it.

Steve H wrote:They are not the same. 2199 isn't "what really went on", it doesn't inform us of ANYTHING in regards to 1974 Yamato. Two. Separate. Shows.


Of course. I don't mean to imply they are, but I do feel the discussion is relevant to both series individually.

Steve H wrote:My assumption has always been the EDF Destroyer was the first of the new generation of WMn using warships. Note it doesn't have a Wave Motion Gun, being in effect a flying gun turret. Armor, Guns, some missiles. Simple but likely deadly to the standard Gamilas destroyer.


A question for my clarification: When you say EDF Destroyer, are you referring to the same class of ships that the Yukikaze was a part of? Or are you referencing a later class of ship, probably seen in the Comet Empire Series?

Thanks for the insight!

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:38 pm
by Ithekro
Steve H wrote:
They are not the same. 2199 isn't "what really went on", it doesn't inform us of ANYTHING in regards to 1974 Yamato. Two. Separate. Shows.


I don't think I've ever going to care about that.

Besides the question was asked in context to both shows.

A question for my clarification: When you say EDF Destroyer, are you referring to the same class of ships that the Yukikaze was a part of? Or are you referencing a later class of ship, probably seen in the Comet Empire Series?


He means the Destroyers from the Comet Empire Series. The Yukikaze style ships don't have wave motion engines, and even if redesigned with them, they done have enough guns and torpedoes to be enough of a threat to Gamion destroyers in he old series. At least in terms of taking care of the Gamilon's number advantage, as we see that Kodai's pre-WMe destroyer was able to take out multiple enemy ships, but based on all else we've seen, that's an anomaly.

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:52 pm
by Steve H
co-mingling 1974 Yamato with Yamato 2199 creates nothing but chaos and confusion. Besides which, this sub-forum is meant to be for discussion for the original Yamato saga, Yamato 2199 has its own sub forum.

Mamoru Kodai's Yukikaze had success with missiles, aka kinetic kill weapons. No EDF beam cannon had any effect whatsoever.

I thought I had laid enough context in my writing above but yes, to be clear, I was referring to the destroyer class as seen in Arrivederci, Yamato and Yamato 2.

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:11 pm
by August Ragone
What Steve said. :mrgreen:

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:49 pm
by DanGeorge
Steve H wrote:So then, the central question regarding the 1974 Yamato.

When the World Government (un-named but clearly implied) and the Earth Defense Command (named) decided to take on what may well have been a suicide mission to Iscandar, the understanding was "If things continue exactly the same as now, Mankind will be extinct in just one Earth year." This was a pretty huge gamble for the EDC. What if the Gamilas increased the bombing? What if they deployed a new, more devastating weapon (the Super Giant Missile as one example)? What if they decided on a physical invasion? All of these must have been considered, I would hope, because all those assumptions are completely logical in terms of any kind of warfare.


The more poignant question is, if they had all these missiles, if they were so devastating and so numerous (we see at least half a dozen of them, if not more, in Episode 7 and then there was the one they launched at the Yamato itself), then why didn't they use them on the Earth already, aside from Dessler having some sort of plans for the planet (such as it becoming the new Gamilas homeworld) or intending to maximise the pain the people of Earth went through?

I think the EDC realised that the only hope for the Earth's (and certainly humanity's) long-term future was to send Yamato to Iscandar to retrieve the Cosmo Cleaner D, as even with Yamato they wouldn't have had a chance of fending off a full-scale invasion. I think it's safe to assume that planet bombing was all, for whatever reason, that Gamilas was prepared to spend attacking Earth over the years that it had been (which was several, since Kodai was extremely young when his parents died in a bombing and Japan was one of the last places on Earth to be attacked).

Steve H wrote:The EDC clearly had no idea on the logistics train that fed the (then-unknown) Gamilas Base on Pluto. They didn't know if the Planet Bombs were imported from outside the Solar System or (more logically) mined and created using the Oort cloud and asteroid belt debris. Simple orbital mechanics would show the 'back track' but there's no real way to assign a launch point. 1974 Yamato doesn't specify that the Planet Bombs come from Pluto, just somewhere outside the orbit of Mars. Episode 7, a Planet Bomb passes Yamato and they ASSUME a base on Pluto sending them off. And so on from there.


It's the only reasonable assumption that can be made, since knowledge in 1974 of the outer solar system was very limited. Charon (the first satellite of Pluto to be found) would not be discovered until 1978 and the Kuiper Belt was not discovered until 1992. The Oort Cloud is thought to cover an area from between 2,000 and 5,000 AU out to 50,000 AU (almost a light year) away from the Sun, so it would be an impractical location to make planet bombs as the distance would be too great unless you had some way of transporting them at superluminal speeds (as a reference, Pluto is only 48 AU from the Sun, so we're roughly talking 50 times the distance). Aside from that, the Oort Cloud is believed to be made up largely of ices made from ammonia, water, and methane (it's assumed to be the source of long-period comets), and thus would not be suitable for making planet bombs (assuming that original series planet bombs are not completely artificial constructs manufactured by Gamilas, which I'm more inclined to believe).

[As a side note: Aside from Charon, no futher moons of Pluto would be discovered until 2005 when Nix and Hydra were discovered and named; two more, Kerberos (2011) and Styx (July 2012) were also discovered (as nothing more than a footnote, Nix and Hydra were seen on the tactical map in the Operations Planning/Situation Room in Episode 5 of 2199, but Kerberos and Styx were not, which suggests that they were discovered too late for them to make an impact in 2199's production).]

It should be noted, that while I can't tell for certain whether Space Battleship Yamato's narration mentions it or not (as I don't speak Japanese, and my only copy of the oriignal Yamato is raw Japanese Blu-Ray), Star Blazers most certainly does say that Pluto was where the planet bombs were launched from (albeit unbeknownst to the Star Force). Of all the things that are lost in translation, I'd be very surprised if that was one of them. If that's not where the planet bombs are launched from, then it makes little sense for Yamato to divert from its course and attack the Pluto base.

I was going to discuss the other parts of your argument, but it's nearly 2:00AM here and I need sleep. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

Re: Cosmo DNA Mission complete... now what?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:54 pm
by Steve H
Well, not really an argument, call it more 'personal fan fiction' in filling in the gaps and such like. :)

I will note that Nishizaki always had faith in science. His giving Pluto even ONE moon was pretty cutting-edge circa 1974. There's even some implication of the Kuiper Belt in Yamato 2 (with all the trans-Pluto planets, or one planet, one debris belt that Star Blazers attributed to a planet destroyed by Gamilon).

As to why not use all those Super Giant Missiles? In Star Blazers it's implied it's a new weapon just arrived at Pluto, seemingly untested in battle. Or at least not used specifically against the Earth.

My assumption would be 'big dumb rocks' salted with radioactives were just easier and cheaper and much more failure-proof. You save your nukes for the final push. Specific hard targets.

It may well be that Gamilas recon plane was recording the locations of the underground cities and shelters, generating targeting data. It wasn't looking for the Yamato per se, but the town built under it for the construction would surely have pinged on the sensors. Which is why the Super Giant Missile had such precise targeting data.